Texts and emails, Tuesday 8 June 2010
Topic: The education system in Ireland
Panel: Kathleen Lynch (UCD), Oliver Murphy (Principal, Castleknock College), Sean Flynn (Education Correspondent, The Irish Times)
I'm so inspired by your main lady speaker from UCD.
Brenda, Limerick
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We both left school at 14 and 15, poor reading and writing, etc. Both worked for the past 30 years in low-paid jobs. We sent our two children to private school, paid for by no drinking, smoking or holidays. Now we have a barrister and solicitor. It was worth every bit of the sacrifice.
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I'm 21, didn't get enough points in my leaving cert for the course I wanted in 2007, now have to wait until I'm 23 to do the course as a mature student, point system is a joke!
John, Cork
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Oliver Murphy is quite right, my parents sent me to a private school (where he taught me) but they didn't have a penny after paying the fees. They simply had education as their highest priority. Why should they be denied that option.
Mark, Clontarf
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Why is your program talking about educating young men? Girls also in to school and actually perform far better than boys.
Mary, Rathfarnham
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Where do your panellists send their children to school?
Eileen
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Ireland as a country is ridiculous. Education and health are disgraceful. Private health and education wins all. My child is in a class of 34, 22 are second class and 12 first class. Teacher has to teach 2 curriculums. How can that be right. I agree, the school year is not long enough but haven't heard any of your speakers making this an issue.
Jacqueline
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Belvedere and Castleknock teach teh cream of society i.e. rich and thick. Lol.
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It's a sad reflection on the children, can't read.
Eileen
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I love introduction of project work during the year for leaving cert but would like it rolled out into every subject.
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My child could not cope with the school system, as a very bright lad he was bored, not challenged. There needs to be different methods of teaching different kinds of children. Those clever ones sometimes turn to crime for a challenge, it's not their fault always. The whole school day and structure has to be examined.
Ann, Kilkenny
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Vincent, do people know HSE forces hospital doctors to work dangerously long hours for very low pay? Many now leaving Irish hospitals.
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Top left-hand corner of the Irish INDO worth a mention!
Joe
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I agree, the LC is a poor examination, there is too much emphasis on the examination. The international baccalaureate examination system has for example 50 percent of the marks in the English examination allocated to coursework, including essays and an oral examination of their poets, prose. The international baccalaureate is a pre-university examination which, unlike the Leaving (according to Google and Intel execs), prepares students for university. Drop-out rates in first year are very high in Irish universities. This should also be a cause for concern.
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My niece is an accomplished musician and wants to pursue music at the age of 17 after leaving cert. trouble is, it would be easier to get the points for medicine. It's a money game, the worst she could do is hurt an ear. Without a scalpel?
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Live in a council estate, raised two Trinity graduates singlehandedly, most working class parents have no interest in education, would rather drink or gamble their money
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Congrats to UCD rep, please could the panel refer to the educational profile of students instead of education per se. Leave out money and face the personal resource of parents of 8 to 12-year-old children in Ireland's cities. Parents who enjoyed the birth of their children of this age most likely had limited happy experience of secondary ed adn therefore left. They, personal work with them, are determined to see their children go to third level and be secure. Problem is, they don't have resources of personal nature to apply to nurturing skills for learning formally. Why is there a home school community liaison scheme, although very limited, if it's not needed and not effective? Regards for your good work.
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Just to tell your panel, my son with a physical disability had an injury to his hand a few months before his leaving cert. He was refused a scribe because he would need to have applied a year before, so he got a tape recorder just before the exam. The system is a joke, if you're not affected by it one won't ever know.
Kay
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I find the show extremely interesting tonight. I was reared in a council estate, my parents provided as best they could for me. I had a good upbringing, but always felt a need to prove myself in order to be accepted by society due to the snobbery of my peers but most especially my teachers throughout my educational years, and the division that was there and is still there. I was looked down on, almost written off by society because of where I came from. I got 400 points in my leaving cert 10 years ago and now I'm a successful businesswoman.
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When are they going to address the issue of a student losing a member of their immediate family during their leaving certificate? Being unable to do the exams and having to resit the whole exam again the following year. Provisions need to be made for extreme circumstances that are out of a student's control.
Ciara
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Hi Vin. Money, money, money ... The world's economy is building their tower of babble on a false foundation. Money in place of humanity. The lady in Fatima was right, the error of communism would spread worldwide, but today it is not founded upon the state, but upon paper money and the world's private bankers. See, Rockefeller was involved in the commission that was in Dublin last week, no mention in media, see DVD America, freedom to facsism on Youtube, by Aaron Russo.
JD, Galway
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Hey, I'm a 16-year-old girl doing my junior cert tomorrow. I think it is terrible the way everything is thrown on us at once. If we had 3 exams over the 3 years, it would give us a goal to reach at the end of each year and keep us focused throughout the full year. People just slack off for a while until the junior cert comes around, and then the three years is all a waste because we have to learn it all over again. I really think an exam at the end of each year would be better for everyone, would keep us focused and give the eachers an easier job of keeping pupils interested, because they'd know that it was an important exam.
Jenny, Maynooth
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My husband and I are far from wealthy, we are both from workign class backgrounds and grew up in the shadow of so-called disadvantaged areas and chose to send our son to Castleknock to benefit his future. As a parent, that was our right, we are very happy with the school adn there is a big mix of kids from all backgrounds.
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The lady on the panel has a social conscience, the principle hasn't got a clue about the average Irish family whose children are every bit as intelligent.
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Vincent, education has always been the same. If you have rich parents, you will get treated as a rich child. Example: Mr. and Mrs. So-and-so's child should be given the best award for this instead of the child of your man, who works on the bin lorry. Simple as that. Status rules in this country. Like most things.
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Is the leaving cert applied taught in fee-paying schools, or is it only for children in disadvantaged areas?
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Kathleen, on people's right to choose private school to keep their kids in with the "right crowd", what areas has she chosen to live, does she practice what she preaches.
Parent, Cork
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Parents who send their kids to private schools pay on the double for education through fees and taxes. There are only 52 private schools in the country, most of which are in South Dublin.
Michael, Rathgar
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It's going to lead to someone like me or my fellow students taking our own lives before this country realises the pressure that is on us to get our points. We are told we will have nothing in our lives unless we get the points we need. It is terrible.
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Why don't you go after the school principle's smug hypocrisy with the same ruthlessness you showed to the hypocrisy of Jack O'Connor or Ciaran Cuffe?
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Kathleen Lynch speaks so much sense regarding education and access to it. Is there any chance she could influence official policies?
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Vincent, I have never heard such a bitter woman in all my life. She is Queen of the Whiners, however well-meaning she is. This country is a meritocracy. Tell her to get over herself.
John, Terenure
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Kathleen is very informative, great panelist worried for the future :)
Mother of Three
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Rich kids are so conceited, but not workers or any brighter than poor kids.
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My name is Colin, attending Castleknock College for the last six years of my life and am now sitting my leaving certificate tomorrow morning in school. I believe that Castleknock is more than a school, also from within it it holds memories, etc. as all schools, but looking at other schools it holds a bond and is not just for the rich, as you say! It is for all backgrounded students and it is clear if you were to go there next year and see, also I fully back my maths teacher and principal Mr. Murphy, a great mathematical genius and teacher.
Colin
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Education is a waste of time. I'm from a disadvantaged background yet I hold a Ph.D. in Law and I can't even get contract work, yet people in my field who are my age and far less qualified but are "connected" are in permanent and pensionable employment. Irish society is corrupt. All my education was for nothing.
Dr. Brian
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Paddy Power is giving odds on which poets will come up on the leaving cert. Have a quick look, students, bookies rarely get it wrong.
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The leaving cert might not be perfect, but it is fair. Ireland is so corrupt, there could not be continual assessment without bias. Sick of listening to criticism of private schools. Your show is for communists!
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In some countries like France, there is a system of 50 percent continual assessment and 50 percent final examination, so that six years of work and study is not solely hinged on one very pressurised exam over a 10-day period. there is too much pressure on Irish students, unlike students in any other country, and we don't achieve any higher in our lives that individuals in other countries.
Kate, Cavan
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Hospitals and schools: Where the working classses lose.
Paddy
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You can never forget the leaving cert because the media focus on this every year. You are made to re-live the leaving cert by the media lyear in, year out. Maths should not be made compulsory under any circumstances.
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I disagree about funding in disadvantaged areas. Schools that are under the "DEIS" scheme have priority funding, lower class sizes, more learning support. Those schools deserve all the funding they can get, and in fact should be entitled to more.
Tomas, Limerick
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Vincent, I am a teacher in a DEIS (disadvantaged) school in Limerick. I am listening to your show. I have read a lot of Kathleen Lynch's insightful work, which challenges all teachers and members of society to examine the social apartheid that exists in education in Ireland, nowhere more obvious than in Limerick city.
She asked who tells students what courses they cannot do without Higher Level Maths, French, etc. People like me do--I am a guidance counsellor in my school! The principal of Castleknock should read some of Ms. Lynch's work!
Mary, Limerick
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The comment that people make sacrifices to send their children to private schools is not a justification for them. Some parents have to make sacrifices just to provide a roof over the heads of their children. The education system is just re-enforcing the societal divide. Kathleen Lynch is absolutely correct. The religious orders should be ashamed of themselves in maintaining them.
Bill, School Principal
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I attended the open night at Castleknock a few weeks ago. A lot of the people were ordinary working people who attended, as I knew many. You can't blame people wanting to better their children. Oliver was a pure gentleman, he gave great time to all the children at the end of the night. I hope to send my child to Castleknock.
Derek
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I'm sitting my leaving cert tomorrow adn you really need to take into account how much stress is put on us on study and getting a place in college, the leaving cert is a very poorly laid-out exam and must be changed. There's life after the leaving cert, no matter what the outcome.
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With realtion to leaving cert Irish, I think it should become optional, as the standard is an absolute disgrace. We are just thought to learn things. I'm probably going to pass it and I can't speak a word.
Stephen
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If we had an inclusive educational society where all of our children's abilities were appreciated, it would eliminate most of our children's and many parents' worries.
Mary, Dunderry
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Does the man on the end think people on social welfare could put money aside for private education?
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Fair play to Kathleen Lynch, she has outlined the systemic inequality of the system. The unions who should be highlighting this are only interested in their "pay and pensions". This injustice within the system has created the "insider elite", whose arrogance has bankrupted the country. Kathleen Lynch should be given a chance on your programme to discuss this with the Minister. The CV is also a "scam" to preserve this elite, as most insiders know.
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She did not explain random selecting. She keeps saying what we don't need, but fails to give alternatives.
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Why not dump religious orders and their exclusive ethos from schools. Teachers and potential principals are asked about these ethos in interviews. Does this accommodate diversity?
Edward, Rathgar - a free-thinking teacher
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Totally agree with Kathleen. HPAT is gender-biased. Also, extra points for maths is saying that you are better than others if you can do honours maths. Demeaning to some hard-working students who don't happen to be maths-oriented.
Bernie, guidance counsellor
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As a teacher in a disadvantaged school, the biggest problems for the most problematic students are their parents. They don't care, and that's the difference between the classes. The lessons and attitudes they learn at home are paramount.
Bill
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Am a teacher. The leaving cert curriculum and points system require complete reform. As for private fee-paying schools ... Let them pay theor own teachers or close them down.
Sean
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Unfortunately, the increasing number of grinds is due to many teachers in non-fee paying schools not up to the job.
Pat, concerned parent
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My brother suffers from severe dyslexia, but is very intelligent. Because of his dyslexia, he struggles with English, let alone a foreign language. This means he cannot obtain certain qualifications from university. Is this fair?
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How many of the special needs students in Castleknock College got their centres because they have private psychological reports and not reports from the department psychological reports?
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Equal opportunity is denied to huge sections of Irish society. Students attending fee-paying schools have an instant head-start. When I left school in 2006, you could count on one hand (and have a few fingers to spare) the number of my fellow students going to third level. If you can pay for second level, why should third level be paid for you?
Stephen, Drimnagh
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I'm mid-income. Why do 50 percent of people in Ireland have private health care? It's better same for education. I value education, others don't. Don't punish my kids for others' lack of values. I am willing to make cuts (no new car or holidays), while others won't. I know many who get free education who are rich, while I make cuts when they don't. Teach to value their kids and their futures, and don't punish me.
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Most disappointed that real issue of leaving cert not discussed.
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If people want to pay through the nose to educate their kids, then that's their right. Stop Cribbing and looking for victims. The equality business thrives on victimhood. Some people are superior and others are inferior and most are in between. That's nature. Period.
Ned
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My daughter was on random choice for UCD. The stress was dreadful for her.
Elizabeth
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Well done, Kathleen Lynch. A breath of sanity.
N.
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Surely the vast majority of fee-paying schools are Protestant? Why do these schools always get so little focus?
Mohammed, Leitrim
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Discipline in schools today is woeful. Why? Not because of fees. We need more good teachers. Was made redundant from private school. Can't get a job two years on.
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I would like to take issue with Kathleen Lynch about students not knowing about honors maths and the third language for University. What does she think guidance counsellors do?
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I would just like to note to one of your panellists, HPAT stands for Health Professionals ADMISSION Test, not aptitude test. And it does not contain algebra.
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I have completed the leaving cert honour degree, a Master's and am currently sitting my professional exams. And I am still anxious about my future. I think there needs to be a more practical approach to the leaving cert, with ongoing modules and exams, more like semesters in college.
Michelle
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There is also a culture where some parents from lower social class, where education is not so important to them. There are other families who are working but not earning a lot, who have more interest in education. I would love to send my children to fee-paying, but can't afford it and we work as paye worker.
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Vincent, society is filled with inequality. Fee-paying schools that allow students with academic ability to overcome Ireland's class-ridden society should be applauded. They are the only institutions that value merit over connections.
Larry, Cork - Former student of PBS, son of a Faranree caretaker
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If teachers are paid by the state, why do we not maintain their professional standards, and it's left to boards of management who do not deal with it when things go back. There is enough new teachers highly trained to replace ineffective teachers.
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That lady "Catherine" is brilliant. Can we see more of her? She talks great sense.
Maria
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If a child is paying for second level, then they should pay for third level.
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That woman speaks such sense.
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Kathleen Lynch is brilliant. Best guest you have had for a long time. Sean Flynn and she understand what privilige is all about. Not smug like others.
Paschal
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At last, a decent discussion on education.
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Surely parents from disadvantaged areas need to also take responsibility for their children. It's not the state's problem!
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I'm a medical student and my family, who are far from well-off, made sacrifices for me to get my education.
James, Galway
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Great, now I'm supposed to feel guilty because I take an interest in my children's education. Feckless parents who couldn't be bothered giving their kids breakfast are the heroes--give me a break. By the way, my son has a learning difficulty and is in a private school doing JC tomorrow.
Deirdre, Stillorgan
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Is it a coincidence that the pubs in disadvantaged areas are the only ones making profits?
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Well said, Vincent, they HAVE the money. Big, big difference between middle class of Castleknock and working class like D12, where I teach and where the kids have nothing, and the only drive the kids get is from me and I can't do that for every kid I teach. That man in Castleknock should come out to my D12 secondary and see the educational squalor! Two kids did higher level Irish this year!
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My daughter went to a "fee-paying" school. She's sitting her Leaving Cert this year and I discovered in February that her English teachers had not set even one essay for homework in almost two years. What hope is there in non-fee paying schools? How many teachers give a damn?
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Used fee-paying school for three years. Still had to pay a fortune in grinds. No extra commitments given for extra classes. Got nothing more than given in state schools.
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Is this debate about leaving cert pros and cons, or about the social issue?
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Tell Kathleen the RTCs/ITs have done magnificent work in allowing access to third level where higher level maths are not a pre-requisite.
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Disadvantage needs to be tackled from birth and during pregnancy. We are weary and angry from having to be the bottom of the pile, no matter what we do.
Tina, Clare
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What a pompous little man that Castleknock principal is. Glad my children go to normal school.
Leo, Laois
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Castleknock College does not feature high in top school result league tables, whereas Gaelscoileanna, non-fee paying schools do. What are parents paying for?
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The issue is that the majority of state funds shoudl in to primary education and pre-primary for free education. It is at an extremely early age that your future is formed.
Rosemary
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Teachers are providing grinds where it is widely known that their colelagues are not providing a sufficient service in the school. It is an industry.
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I agree with everything that woman is saying about the schools, my daughter went to a public school and there were no resources. I moved and put my child in the local school, which I discovered was a fee-paying school, and there is a big difference in the resources. Why?
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There should be more investment in alternative education, like Nula Jackson's school in Waterford, which educates the individual instead of producing fodder for the market.
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Re: point on lettin gchildren know what subjects are required to pursue particular careers--seems there is no connection between real life and education.
M.
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A caste system by any other name smells just as foul.
Eamonn
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There is NO such thing as FREE schooling in Ireland. In any level.
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How much are the fees for one student per year at Castleknock College? Many parents in Ballymun hugely value education and are doing all they can to support teachers in their work, but are hampered by lack of money and their own education. Everything Kathleen Lynch is saying is right!
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Does anybody factor in parental and pupil laziness? if we are truthful, there are significant numbers of disruptive pupils who will underachieve.
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If children behaved in public schools, there woudl be no need for private schools. Ireland has no discipline.
Bobby, Dublin
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Like everything else in this "baboon republic", education is a total farce.
Martyn
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The government are cutting back on library services for the poor. It's a disgrace, when they give 100 million to private schools. Why is it always the poor that have to suffer?
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Weaker students in Wexford are not let to do transition year. Deprive them further.
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Catherine Lynch has it wrong! I'm a taxi driver and my children are in fee-paying schools. Myself and my wife sacrifice a lot to do this!
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Has yoru researcher taken potential differences in IQ into consideration when talking about low rates of numeracy and literacy in non-fee paying schools?
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The Leaving Cert! What a stupid name for a stupid exam! The exam is an anachronism belonging to another era. Terminal exams like the Leaving need to be phased out and shoudl be replaced by continuous assessment and project-oriented assignments, not a load of trash that is patently unfair and inequitable. The Leaving is more geared towards those from priviliged backgrounds adn the middle classes--no wonder they do much better. Some people just don't have a chance in this life, end of story!
Darren, Cork
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there are significantly greater problems with the "education" system at the moment. There is likewise a difference between number of points and education quality.
Daron
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Does VINCENT acknowledge he got a good education in Castleknock College?
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I went to Belvedere College for five years and I was ignored badly because teachers thought I was a messer. I struggled and was found to be dyslexic. I left at the end of fifth year because I felt let down, and my parents spent thousands of Euro and a school ment to be one of the best couldn't pick up on this.
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Vincent, who do we expect to clean public toilets when everyone is qualified to get the well paying jobs. We will import thos low pay workers.
Buddah, Cork
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As far as I am aware, the national lottery was set up to raise revenue for the less well-off to invest in facilities for play grounds, etc. Yet Alexandra College, which is a well-off private school, had all of their hockey pitches relaid using national lottery money. How is this allowed to happen?
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Vincent, look after your health, you look drawn this evening. Enjoying the chat.
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Who doesn't care about the kids going to school. It's those responsible for them and their parents. Let's get real here. And why is the government subsidising private schools when state schools are creaking.
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I think the system is deplorable, the pressure put on children to get points. Some cope fine but some it really affects.
Sharon
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Why do I get the feeling you are only talking about education in Dublin and not in Ireland, I am in County Limerick, do we not exist.
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What is the point of this program, it is stupid.
Chelsea, Dublin
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I completely agree with the Castleknock principal, my parents are not rock but they made several sacrifices to send me to a school they felt best suited me.
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Job prospects are not driven entirely by education. they are driven more by affluence and connection to wealthy society groups that allow a student to prosper in later life, so let the students with no affluence or connection to wealth worry, not as they will not have success even with good education, without connections. Our society is not structured the way it needs to be in order to assist the less well-off.
Mick, Clare
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I'm 31 and I work 3 nights in a chip shop. I'm glad to have a job to pay towards mortgage. I know lots of highly educated people who are unemployed!
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In rural Ireland, there is much less of a problem as the school is an intergral part of the society it serves adn the teachers are neighbors of their students.
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Do the panellists send their kids to private schools?
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Every word that lady is saying is fact.
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Vincent, I love the intro of project work during the year for leaving cert, but would ike it rolled out to every subject.
Adrienne
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I'm in Terenure College and I'm doing my leaving cert tomorrow, and I think there is so much pressure on the leaving cert. To be told that what I do with the rest of my life depends on the next 12 days, I think it is too much pressure on people my age. And yet I am very anxious about what lies ahead. The pressure for the cao is disgraceful.
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Why can't students do leaving cert first then fill out CAO when they know how many points they have. Present system came before computer or calculator.
Mai
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Last year's English paper was a mess up, which was not fair. It upset a lot of people. That wouldn't happen in any other country. crazy. From UCD nursing students. Some advice for this year's students, don't tell if you see the paper. Saves a lot more stress.
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How did you like Ballybunion the weekend.
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Vincent, please mention the next people's march outside the mansion house on the 23 June, don't continue the media blackout on these marches.
Peter
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Leaving cert? I know guys that got two honours, the honour of doing it and the honour of failing it. AND they would buy and sell ministers.
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HSE, a.k.a. Health Service Excuses. Vincent, the words "lessons learned" are usually voiced by the incompetent.
A.P.
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Shoudd bank workers now be paid the same as civil servants--seeing that the Government owns such a portion of the banks and probably will own even more in the future. Why should civil servants' wages be cut while bank workers can stay on the same wages?