Dermot Ahern and Condoleeza Rice
Analysis of the question and answer session with Dermot Ahern after his discussions with Condoleezza Rice on the use of Shannon by CIA aircraft engaged in illegally transporting terror suspects to countries where torture, as understood in international law, is practiced regularly. This is an edited transcript with comment
Reporter:
Minister, could you address whether or not the issue of CIA flights through Shannon was brought up in the meeting with the Secretary of State?
Dermot Ahern:
In relation to that, the Secretary of State confirmed the assurance that we had been given both by the US embassy in Dublin but also though our embassy here in Washington that Shannon was not being used. She will be answering the letter that Jack Straw sent on behalf of members of the European Union. She will be traveling to Europe later on in the next couple of days and obviously she will be addressing the issue in a bit more detail about what may or may not be happening in Europe.
Was she saying she was denying Shannon had been used by CIA flights? If so, this is clearly false. If she was merely reiterating the general and nuanced position she has been making abouit CIA flights not being used to transport people to places of "torture", then that is quite different and, potentially, meaningless, in view of the very narrow definition the US now appears to be giving to the word "torture".
Reporter:
She didn't necessarily confirm or deny the reports that there were rendition flights in Europe or that some of these secret prisons perhaps (inaudible) she specifically gave you assurances that Shannon was not... (inaudible)
Dermot Ahern:
No, she also very clearly said that the US have not infringed International Law in relation to human rights nor would she expect others to believe that they would ask American citizens to abuse human rights. She was very categoric it has to be said and she would be making this quite clear when she goes to Europe in the next couple of days.
From this it appears all she said to him was what she has been saying since she came to Europe – namely the nuanced assurances regarding "torture".
Reporter:
You said that you were constantly assured that they were not using Shannon, what was the last time you asked?
Dermot Ahern:
I had a meeting with the US ambassador in Dublin just before I came away. In fact, my officials had meetings here this morning before my meeting with Secretary of State Rice. Oh yes on a constant basis with the US Embassy in Dublin in relation to all of the media reports, it has been raised in our Parliament on a constant basis and as a friendly nation to the US they have given us categoric assurances that Shannon has not been used for anything untoward and I have said publicly that we as a friendly nation towards the US totally accept the categoric assurances that they have given us and confirmed here today. I have to say that the Government would be very concerned and I think the Irish people would be very concerned if Shannon was to be used in any way that would infringe international law and that we would have to take immediate action if we felt that was the case. But as I said, Secretary of State Rice has confirmed the position as given to us by the US Embassy on a constant basis not least in the last couple of days.
But the point of concern is that the US is using a definition of "torture" that is at variance with the international law definition and therefore assurances of this nature are meaningless. Did Dermot Ahern ask her specifically: can you assure us that nobody transported on flights through Ireland has beforehand or later been subjected to inhuman or degrading treatment or to physical or psychological abuse? Either he did not ask this question; or he did and got an evasive reply; or he got a reply he does not wish to share with us. More than likely he did not ask.
Reporter:
Do you take them at their word and that's it or are you involved or is your Government involved in your own investigation into the matter?
Dermot Ahern:
No, we are not involved in an investigation. We follow the practice that has been followed for the past 50 years by previous governments of every hue and cry in Ireland that we accept the categoric assurances of a sovereign nation, of a sovereign friendly nation.
There has been no such practice over 50 years. Until quite recently the consistent practice was to refuse over flights or landing rights to any planes engaged in military projects, including military exercises. Repeatedly US and British aircraft were refused permission even in the context of peaceful military exercises. The Government has consistently obfuscated this issue in its handling of questions to do with landing rights and over flights in the context of the on-going military engagement in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Reporter:
So, can we just be clear on the answer to the previous question about the assurance, you are assured that Shannon itself has not been used by a flight that was taking part in rendition, but, is there any leeway for us to understand that those flights were using Shannon and then going on to another destination for the purpose of rendition?
Dermot Ahern:
We are talking completely hypothetically as it is because I have said publicly in Ireland that if anyone has any evidence in relation to any of these flights please bring them forward and we would immediately have them investigated under the laws of our State in relation to any operation that might happen within our State. Nobody has come forward in that respect so we're talking totally hypothetically.
Such evidence has been published repeatedly in Village and elsewhere in the last several months. The government clearly does not want to know.